The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters.
The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald, did you have a good trip here?
The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the record, I should like to read it.
On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."
On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, the interpreter——
The Chairman. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the end he may do that.
On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.
The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining witnesses and the receiving of evidence.
The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
The Chairman. And your lawyer is Mr. Thorne?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
The Chairman. He is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
The Chairman. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a copy of this?
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, that is the copy he received there.
Mr. Thorne. I have read a copy of it, Mr. Chief Justice, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any questions about it?
Mr. Thorne. There are no questions.
The Chairman. Very well.
Very well, we will proceed to swear Mrs. Oswald as a witness.
Will you please rise, Mrs. Oswald.
(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald, through the interpreter.)
The Chairman. Mr. Reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn.
(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the interpreter.)
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want, either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she has said you may feel free to ask them.
After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you?
Mr. Thorne. Very satisfactory, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock, and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free to say so and we will take care of it.
Mrs. Oswald. Thank you.
The Chairman. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission.
I think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, Mr. Rankin?
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers.
Will you state your name, please?
Mrs. Oswald. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden name was Prussakova.
Mr. Rankin. Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. Oswald. At the present time I live in Dallas.
Mr. Rankin. And where in Dallas?
Mrs. Oswald. Mr. Thorne knows my address.
Mr. Thorne. 11125 Ferrar Street, Dallas, Dallas County, Tex.
Mr. Rankin. Do you live with friends there?
Mrs. Oswald. I live with Mr. Jim Martin and his family.
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you have a family?
Mrs. Oswald. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old in February, and Rachel is 3 months old.
Mr. Rankin. Are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your experiences in the United States?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I have. I think that you are familiar with it.
Mr. Rankin. You furnished it to the Commission, did you not, or a copy of it?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this document in Russian that you furnished to us?
Mrs. Oswald. I wrote this document not specifically for this Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days.
Mr. Rankin. And by "him" who did you mean?
Mrs. Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have any assistance in preparing this document in Russian?
Mrs. Oswald. No, no one.
Mr. Rankin. Are all the statements in that document true insofar as you know?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I did.
Mr. Rankin. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in those interviews, is that true?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know how many there were.
Mr. Rankin. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add to?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not everything was true.
Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us——
Mrs. Oswald. It is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? Will you tell us that?
Mrs. Oswald. At the present time, I can't remember any specific instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up I will say so.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Oswald. On the 13th of June, 1962—I am not quite certain as to the year—'61 or '62, I think '62.
Mr. Rankin. How did you come to this country?
Mrs. Oswald. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New York to Dallas by air.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came?
Mrs. Oswald. I think it was the SS Rotterdam but I am not sure.
Mr. Rankin. What time of the day did you arrive in New York?
Mrs. Oswald. It was—about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to remember the exact time.
Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay in New York at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in New York, and then we left the following day by air.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times.
Mr. Rankin. What did you do during your stay in New York?
Mrs. Oswald. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order to arrange for tickets, and so forth.
Mr. Rankin. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during that period?
Mrs. Oswald. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them in English and I didn't understand it.
Mr. Rankin. Would that be a Travelers' Aid Bureau or Red Cross?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American Embassy in Moscow.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight to Texas?
Mrs. Oswald. I think that by about 5 p.m. we were already in Texas.
Mr. Rankin. Did you go to Dallas or Fort Worth at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at the house.
Mr. Rankin. Who else stayed at Robert's house at that time besides your family?
Mrs. Oswald. His family and no one else.
Mr. Rankin. What did his family consist of at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. He and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl.
Mr. Rankin. How long did you stay at Robert's?
Mrs. Oswald. About 1 to 1½ months—perhaps longer, but no longer than 2 months.
Mr. Rankin. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us was very good.
Mr. Rankin. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time when you were at Robert's?
Mrs. Oswald. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the household.
Mr. Rankin. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he seek work right away?
Mrs. Oswald. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to the library. That is it.
Mr. Rankin. Then did he seek work in Fort Worth?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. And when did he find his first job there?
Mrs. Oswald. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that we live with her for some time.
Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your mother-in-law to have you live with her?
Mrs. Oswald. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of course, I found out about it.
Mr. Rankin. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found out about it?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course.
Mr. Rankin. You recall that discussion?
Mrs. Oswald. No. I only remember the fact.
Mr. Rankin. Did he find work after you left Robert's then?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her for a time?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know the reason why he did not want to live there any more?
Mrs. Oswald. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I know this for sure.
Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that at the time?
Mrs. Oswald. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and Lee felt that he had done most of—the greatest effort in that respect and didn't want to discuss it.
Mr. Rankin. Where did he find work at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know, but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived, and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, something for buildings.
Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work?
Mrs. Oswald. He didn't like it.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how long he stayed at that job?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was discharged?
Mrs. Oswald. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know why.
Mr. Rankin. When you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go?
Mrs. Oswald. I have already said that we moved to Mercedes Street.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have an apartment there?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the address on Mercedes Street?
Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember the exact number.
Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had?
Mrs. Oswald. Living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom.
Mr. Rankin. This was the first time since you had come to this country then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that right?
Mrs. Oswald. No, we had our own home in Russia.
Mr. Rankin. Did your husband work a full day at that time on this job?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sometimes he even worked on Saturdays.
Mr. Rankin. What did you do when he came home, did he help you with housework?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He frequently went to a library. He read a great deal.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of the books that he read at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical nature rather than fiction or literature.
Mr. Rankin. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that?
Mrs. Oswald. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it happened.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have differences between you about the time that he spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of the family?
Mrs. Oswald. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading.
Mr. Rankin. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at Mercedes Street the first time.
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, we didn't have many quarrels.
Mr. Rankin. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit you or did you visit him?
Mrs. Oswald. No, he came to us sometimes.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. Did your mother-in-law come to see you at Mercedes Street?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street?
Mrs. Oswald. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for her, I don't want her to come here any more."
Mr. Rankin. During this period did your husband spend much time with the baby, June?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He loved children very much.
Mr. Rankin. Did you obtain a television set at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then returned it. Should I speak a little louder?
Mr. Rankin. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing the payments?
Mrs. Oswald. I think that he only guaranteed the payments.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much the television set cost?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. So far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's income?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with the welding company?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Did he try to find another job in Fort Worth then?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one then?
Mrs. Oswald. He looked for work for some time but he could not find it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in Dallas.
Mr. Rankin. How long was he out of work?
Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember, perhaps that long.
Mr. Rankin. Where did he find work in Dallas, do you remember the name?
Mrs. Oswald. I know it was some kind of a printing company which prepares photographs for newspapers.
Mr. Rankin. Was he working with the photographic department of that company?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the welding company?
Mrs. Oswald. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it was a dollar and a quarter an hour.
Mr. Rankin. Did he work much overtime at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. Not too much but sometimes he did work Saturdays.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing company?
Mrs. Oswald. A dollar forty an hour.
Mr. Rankin. How many hours did he work a week, do you recall?
Mrs. Oswald. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked later, and on Saturdays, too.
Mr. Rankin. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find this job in Dallas?
Mrs. Oswald. George Bouhe.
Mr. Rankin. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at Mercedes Street?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him we became acquainted with others.
Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that you knew in Fort Worth?
Mrs. Oswald. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford.
Mr. Rankin. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth?
Mrs. Oswald. George De Mohrenschildt—this was both in Fort Worth and Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth.
Mr. Rankin. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you met in Dallas?
Mrs. Oswald. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives in Dallas?
Mr. Rankin. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those you had already met in Fort Worth?
Mrs. Oswald. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt—no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth.
Mr. Rankin. Did these friends visit you at your home in Fort Worth?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and see us.
Mr. Rankin. Did you ever visit them in their homes?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several times to visit them.
Mr. Rankin. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you describe that?
Mrs. Oswald. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during this period?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they visited you?
Mrs. Oswald. No. They usually brought—they usually came for short visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers, George liked cucumbers.
Mr. Rankin. When you moved to Dallas, where did you live the first time?
Mrs. Oswald. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived with Elena Hall.
Mr. Rankin. For how long a period did you live with Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. Oswald. I think that it was about a month and a half.
Mr. Rankin. During that month and a half what did your husband do?
Mrs. Oswald. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know during that month and a half where he lived?
Mrs. Oswald. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMCA but very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know.
Mr. Rankin. During that month and a half did he come and see you and the baby?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had no car. It was not very easy.
Mr. Rankin. Were these trips to see you on the weekends?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. When he came did he also stay at the Hall's?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for your room and your meals?
Mrs. Oswald. No. No, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to help us.
Mr. Rankin. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you? Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some place?
Mrs. Oswald. No, we didn't go anywhere.
Mr. Rankin. Did he do any reading there?
Mrs. Oswald. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could not stay very long.
Mr. Rankin. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had been doing in Dallas, his work and other things?
Mrs. Oswald. He liked his work very much.
Mr. Rankin. After this month and a half did he find a place for you all to live together?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no problem there to find a place.
Mr. Rankin. Did you then move to a home in Dallas?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, on Elsbeth, Elsbeth Street in Dallas.
Mr. Rankin. Do you remember the number?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place on Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. Oswald. A friend who had a car helped us—I don't remember his name, Taylor, Gary Taylor.
The Chairman. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself.
(Short recess.)
The Chairman. The Commission may be in order.
Mr. Rankin. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. Oswald. One trip was enough.
Mr. Rankin. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it rooms or an apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. An apartment.
Mr. Rankin. How many rooms in the apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have a telephone there?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what rent you paid?
Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that it was $60, plus the utilities.
Mr. Rankin. That would be $60 a month?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty dollars a month including water.
Mr. Rankin. Did your husband help you with the housework at that address?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he always helped.
Mr. Rankin. What about his reading habits there, were they the same?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, about the same.
Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did he spend several hours each evening in this reading?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of the books that he read at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. Oswald. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of the United States.
Mr. Rankin. Did your husband come home for a midday meal?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. Did you go out in the evenings?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Where did you go?
Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream.
Mr. Rankin. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food with you and have a picnic?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or what means of transportation?
Mrs. Oswald. It was only 10 minutes away, 10 minutes walking time from us.
Mr. Rankin. Were either you or your husband taking any schooling at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. Lee took English courses or typing courses.
Mr. Rankin. During what days of the week were these typing courses?
Mrs. Oswald. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses.
Mr. Rankin. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday?
Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that is the way it was. I know it was on Monday.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to be at these classes?
Mrs. Oswald. It seems that it was from 7 until 9.
Mr. Rankin. About what time would he get home from work?
Mrs. Oswald. About 5 to 5:30.
Mr. Rankin. Then would you eat your evening meal?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. How soon after that would he leave for the class?
Mrs. Oswald. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home for dinner, usually he didn't.
Mr. Rankin. Did he practice his typewriting at home at all?
Mrs. Oswald. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which he would review when he was at home.
Mr. Rankin. How soon after the class was over did he come home ordinarily?
Mrs. Oswald. Nine o'clock.
Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these classes?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the De Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. Oswald. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this was on Neely Street.
Mr. Rankin. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Rankin. Do you remember why you moved from Elsbeth to Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and that was more convenient for the child.
Mr. Rankin. What size apartment did you have on Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. The same type of apartment.
Mr. Rankin. Was the only difference the terrace then?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a second-floor apartment.
Mr. Rankin. Was the Elsbeth Street apartment a first-floor apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between the two places?
Mrs. Oswald. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It seems to me it was $55.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have any differences with your husband while you were at Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth.
Mr. Rankin. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of you. Did that occur at Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. No. That was on Elsbeth Street.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what brought that about?
Mrs. Oswald. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of returning to Russia?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that that—Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place. Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had in mind I don't know.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going to Russia?
Mrs. Oswald. On Elsbeth Street.
Mr. Rankin. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him to start to talk that way?
Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know why he started to hit you about that?
Mrs. Oswald. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't. I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his tension.
Mr. Rankin. Did you observe sometime when you thought he changed?
Mrs. Oswald. I would say that immediately after coming to the United States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia.
Mr. Rankin. Will you describe how you observed these changes and what they were as you saw them?
Mrs. Oswald. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me to have anything to do with them.
He was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason.
Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you why he did not like your Russian friends?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand. At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said some stupid or foolish things.
Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us the stupid things that he said?
Mrs. Oswald. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same position being an American in America but there were really no reasons but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and everything is measured by money. It seems to me that perhaps he was envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear that.
Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he said foolish things.
This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time.
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on the problem. You understand that?
Mrs. Oswald. I understand you are not asking these questions out of curiosity but for a reason.
Mr. Rankin. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends that he disliked more than others?
Mrs. Oswald. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he—because he was a strong person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller.
Mr. Rankin. Did you ever tell him you liked these people?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put me into—put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice.
Mr. Rankin. When was this, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. Oswald. On Elsbeth Street.
Mr. Rankin. How long were you gone from him then?
Mrs. Oswald. One week.
Mr. Rankin. Did he ask you to return?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her.
Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat you if you returned?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for the children.
Mr. Rankin. What did he say to that?
Mrs. Oswald. Then he said that it would be—it was very hard for him. That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend.
Mr. Rankin. What did you say about accepting him as he was?
Mrs. Oswald. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior.
Mr. Rankin. Then did he get in touch with you again?
Mrs. Oswald. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that evening and he cried and said that he wanted me to return home because if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to change.
Mr. Rankin. While you were at Mrs. Ford's did she go to the hospital?
Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that you are confused—this was Elena Hall in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea of your going to Russia alone?
Mrs. Oswald. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I could work in Russia. That was all.
Mr. Rankin. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed that you go and he stay?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell me.
Mr. Rankin. What would you say to him at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know the reason he would not tell me.
Mr. Rankin. Is there something that you have learned since that caused you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to do?
Mrs. Oswald. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand himself. I thought that I was the reason for that.
Mr. Rankin. Did he have a job then?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Did you feel that you were getting along on what he was earning?
Mrs. Oswald. Of course.
Mr. Rankin. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide more for the family?
Mrs. Oswald. No. We had enough.
Mr. Rankin. You were not complaining about the way you were living?
Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans $200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that is not true.
Mr. Rankin. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia that he was proposing to break up your marriage?
Mrs. Oswald. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce.
Mr. Rankin. Did he say why?
Mrs. Oswald. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in the United States I want to be free in Russia.
Mr. Rankin. During this period did he appear to be more excited and nervous?
Mrs. Oswald. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in Russia.
Mr. Rankin. By the later time that you just referred to what do you mean? Can you give us some approximate date?
Mrs. Oswald. When we went to Neely Street.
The Chairman. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.
Mrs. Oswald. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The Chairman. All right. Let us proceed.
(The Chairman administered the oath to Alvin I. Mills, Stenotype Reporter.)
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, do you have the last questions?
In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time.
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right?
Mrs. Oswald. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us those things that you observed that caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or that you have obtained more light on since.
Mrs. Oswald. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand him at that time.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. Oswald. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.
Mr. Rankin. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read—where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.
Mr. Rankin. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think—I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.
Mr. Rankin. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?
Mrs. Oswald. No, it did not have a scope on it.
Mr. Rankin. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it?
Mrs. Oswald. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What do we need that for?"
He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.
Mr. Rankin. In Russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You men. That is your business.
The Chairman. My wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right.
Mrs. Oswald. I have never served in the Army.
Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in Russia? Was it brought over to this country?
Mrs. Oswald. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't want to say too much.
Mr. Rankin. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. Oswald. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street at any time?
Mrs. Oswald. You must know that the rifle—it isn't as if it was out in the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't know whether he took it with him or not.
Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything.
Mr. Gopadze. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth.
Mr. Rankin. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it?
Mrs. Oswald. About four times—about four or five times, I think.
Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning the—that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after use?
Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time.
Mr. Rankin. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be back soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.
Mr. Rankin. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at Neely Street—that is, that it was gone?
Mrs. Oswald. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs, but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take care of it himself.
I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say anything to me.
Mr. Rankin. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were asking about?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Later, after he had fired, he told me about it.
I didn't know that he intended to do it—that he was planning to do it.
Mr. Rankin. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. Oswald. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.
Mr. Rankin. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?
Mrs. Oswald. He told me. And he would mention that in passing—it isn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going"—it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."
But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice."
Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.
When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle, but he also had a gun, a revolver.
Mr. Rankin. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you remember?
Mrs. Oswald. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice—once in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs.
Mr. Rankin. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the pistol?
Mrs. Oswald. I can't say.
Mr. Rankin. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.
Mr. Rankin. Would that be at the airport—Love Field?
Mrs. Oswald. Love Field.